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 gphillips |
Spec/Create Engines |
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Posts: 72 (07/18/08 09:21 PM) |
In the thread about dwarf cars using the GSXR600 engines the idea of a create or a spec engine is tossed around. I was just wondering what you guys thought
about going to something similar. I would also like the thoughts of those on this board about effective ways to seal an engine to at least make tampering with
an engine a little more difficult.
Thanks Greg |
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Twister Chassis |
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Posts: 235 (07/18/08 10:55 PM) |
Is somebody's throwing truckloads of money into a motor they will black-market be able to get any kind a sealed you put on the engine. No racing group in
has been able to seal the engines without people cheating. You can regulate it more by tires and shocks then you can buy motors if you put a real hard small
tire. a small motor will get around the track better than the big horsepower motors. You are alwaysgoing to have a guy sets up his car and does maintenance on
it new tires and shocks is gone a be the guy run good.
Twister chassis
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jbark51 |
AMEN Mr. Twister! | ||
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Posts: 935 (07/19/08 11:38 AM) |
Spec/Crate motors can easily double the cost of aquireing an engine for teh guy whos not gonna cheat. And the cheaters are gonna do what they want anyway
because "most" of whats inside a motor isnt normally checkable. If you go on racingjunk.com you can find an add for a company that will put whatever
you want in a GM crate motor and reseal it for you. Or just sell you the bolts to do it yourself.
The Better and really only way to regulate horsepower is to take away the ability to use it. Through harder tires, removing traction devices like torque links, and even as far as limiting the rear weight percentage. Lets face it. Nobody will ever tear a motor down to the crank at a weekly race to see if it was tampered with. All "sealing" a motor is going to do is give a cheater a lock over the cover of his/her evidence. JB |
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jjh74 |
Teching | ||
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Posts: 67 (07/19/08 07:07 PM) |
The only way really it will work is everyone one gets teched all in one day before the season. The Assosiation provides the seals and everyone can have a chance to be there to see what everyone has. No one better have anyafter market stuff Bottum or top end. It might be a long day but you only have to do it once a year. If a driver blows a engine then he has one grace race then it has to be teched. Everyone that has blown a engine has had it teched right away(at the track before racing). If the Association feels like a person is cheating they purchase the engine for a thousand dollars check it, if it is found to be illegal you loose your pionts and the engine goes on E-bay whatever it sales for goes back into the fund(that engine serial # recorded) . As Jeff also stated, (tires) we run a medium tire. I honestly believe that having allot of engine in arizona will hurt you anyways at most tracks. Our tracks are very abrasive, when I got that car (#04) from NY last year I took it to practice with a brand new soft (RR)and it was trashed in 10 laps. Our tracks dry out just about every night too. I don't think there is anyone cheating in our group(yet) the racing is very competitive. I think that if someone wants to loose there engine for $1,000 dollars they will think twice about cheating. If you don't give your engine up you just won't race..Manzy 7-18-09( 29 Modlites) & (21 Dwarfs) 50 little ones. Not bad right! Jeremy J Hokanson
Last Edited By: jjh74
07/21/08 08:07 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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Steve Moriarty.ddccmessageboard |
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Posts: 13 (07/20/08 11:35 AM) |
Hi,
My name is Steve Moriarty and I own Cycle Dynamics. I came up with the engine tech proceedures used by the Southwest Modlites in Phx Az. Perhaps I can elaborate on what Jeremy is saying, then you decide. No system is infallable or cheat proof, but I feel we have gone a long way towards leveling the playing field and keeping costs down. 1st the intake gets pulled and the ports carefully inspected for any type of grinding or multi-angle valve seat work. Then we pull the valve cover and inspect the cams, ( I know if they are not stock ) we also make sure it doesnt have adjustable cam sprockets. We measure the head gasket thickness with the tabs sticking out. We measure bore size and inspect through the spark plug hole to insure stock pistons. We do a compression test and log all info on a tech sheet. Finally we seal the valve cover. Im fairly certain, since I wired all of them and have 25 years safety wiring roadracing bikes, that I can tell if its been tampered with. The owner of the seal tool also used it for 20 years.....he knows every mark and knick in it intimately. Can someone find a way around this? Probably, but the final deal is if the engine appears to be unreasonably strong the club can claim it and do a tear down inspection at my shop. If found illegal you have alot to lose, including never being trusted by the club again. No system is perfect, but all the complaining about engines has all but disappeared. It has probably been the single best thing this organization has done this year and has played a big part in its growth. Steve |
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TXDwarf07 |
Steve... | ||
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Posts: 63 (07/20/08 11:41 AM) |
How much does it cost per car to have you do this inspection and seal? How much time do you spend on each engine?
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CJRaceCars |
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Posts: 83 (07/20/08 12:27 PM) |
Steve,
Excellent. you have the system by which, I think all other clubs interested in keeping motor cost down should adopt. Your inspection procedures are the dang near perfect . Now the association claim is perfect, its what is feared the most and will simply keep the high dollar motors out. I feel If a guy is going to try and dump tons of money in his motor he will either run from or conform to the idea that its the car and driver that win races and not his wallet. I don't know if you are the sole person that has come up with this procedure,but I commend you if you have. SWML have a great car count and you guys are the model association that those of us in California interested in leveling the playing field just absolutely love. Again great job. Charles |
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gphillips |
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Posts: 73 (07/20/08 02:39 PM) |
Steve,
Thanks for the information on the procedures you are using in your association as far as sealing the engines. There is a group of us who are looking at getting a Mod-Lite/Dwarf Car class started her, and we are looking at ways to keep the cost of racing as affordable as possible. The things that keep coming up in our discussions of keeping costs in line are engine rules, tire rules, and shock rules. We have just been unsure of which way to go on engines, whether we use a "spec" engine, like the club running the 600s, or if we need to use some other means, like maybe a HP rule. I just thought I would ask the people on here how have been or are going through the same thing. Thanks Greg |
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Steve Moriarty.ddccmessageboard |
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Posts: 14 (07/20/08 02:42 PM) |
Thanks Charles I really appreciate the compliment.
SWMLA organizers came up with the premis.....But they relied on me, the professional, to come up with the proceedures. We had a tech day on a Saturday and did something like 50 engines in 1 day. (exhausting ) That was free to the drivers. SWMLA paid me $500.00 for the day of which I rolled it over into an associate sponsorship for the club. Guys not wanting to wait in line or that couldnt make tech day pay me $30.00 ( 1/2 hr ) to tech and seal their engines. Alot of it came from some of the guys that know me......my stuff is fast. They felt they couldnt catch me from building some nasty stuff, yet they knew me as honest and hard working. I guess it was kinda like if we cant beat him.....join him......and it was a perfect match. I have years building AMA superstock competition engines, which are all stock yet blueprinted yielding an extra 20-30 HP. The experience has really paid off in the 4 wheel market.....as shown by our undefeated status in 08 for DDCC competition. The cool thing is youd think it would hurt me in terms of business.....but it hasnt.....Im doing tons of STOCK rebuilds with no BP work. They come to me so they know they are getting a legal sealed engine....yet fresh....so its really been a win win thing all around. Steve |
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SWMLA.southwestmodlites |
Engine tech rules | ||
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Posts: 1 (07/20/08 09:35 PM) |
We at Southwest Modlite Association have decided "stock" is best. And thanks to Cycle Dynamics we have an engine professional to help us with this
idea. The seal stamp we use is a one of a kind; and not from the racing industry. Anything is possible; so we realize it could be copied, but for $150 to win
it seems not probable, and have not seen it yet. We also have an Engine Association Purchase Plan as a last result, not a"claim". As far as our
results? The Southwest Modlite Association is averaging 28 cars per night. Medium tires (Hoosier, Goodyears are okay but not for points), no stagger, no
beadlocks, no torque link, and a stock engine. We have not incorporated the later model, higher HP engines yet; we will (in their stock form). It is working
here in Arizona. And remember there were NO modlites in Arizona 30 months ago; at Manzanita Friday night July 18 for $200 to win and $50 to start there were
29 cars!!!. Limited Modlite / Maximum Excitement. It may not be for your part of the country but it is working here. For further information go to www.swmodlite.com or email me at rtg19az@hotmail.com.
Thanks, Art Garcia, SWModlite #19AZ |
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CJRaceCars |
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Posts: 84 (07/21/08 10:57 AM) |
Hey Art ,
Congrats on your ongoing success. I really hope we can have as much success in California as you guys have down there . We where down there last winter and really had a blast and hope to make even more shows this winter or sooner. We are working really hard on getting our Eliminator back into like new condition and although we went ahead and got an 05/6 gsxr, because we new that eventually thats what would be plentyful and cheapest in the long run via Ebay  . We are
seriously considering getting a 04 just to come race with you guys sooner than this winter (only time wil tell). I don't want you to think we are nabbing
your rules . But they are really that good , your growth is hard fact that they simply work. Those of us here that are planning on getting cars realize that it
is the type of rules that you have created that makes the growth possible.
Charles |
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Twister Chassis |
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Posts: 236 (07/21/08 09:15 PM) |
Just a little comparison. For us to take 30 cars to six different tracks we would have most of our people travel and 600 miles. It looks like most of your members live within about 30 miles of each other and your tracks are within 80 miles. Not that you guys are not have been good car numbers and some good racing in Arizona. Just the dwarf car base that has been there for 20 years leaves a lot of people willing to race in the small car class because they do not have to travel so for. I'm just wondering if this is why you're having some success in certain areas of the country that others are have been a hard time. In your talking about sealing the motors you didn't mention anything about clutches transmissions and rods and bearings. You know a lot can be done there.
Twister chassis
Last Edited By: Twister Chassis
07/21/08 09:17 PM.
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jjh74 |
Teched Engines | ||
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Posts: 68 (07/21/08 10:00 PM) |
Yes, For most drivers the tracks are within 80 to 100 miles. For me 260 miles every race but 4. Clutches, Bearing & Rods can be replaced stock!!! You
don't have to race your association at six tracks if you do not have that luxury. I have had Job offers in Kentucky,Tennesee,Wisconsin,Ohio & Texas but
racing would be to expensive for me to make the move. If things changed that might be a different story. Jeremy
Last Edited By: jjh74
07/21/08 10:33 PM.
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jjh74 |
Teched Engines | ||
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Posts: 68 (07/21/08 10:00 PM) |
gphillips, you can go with 600cc, but if you do just remember if you do not make it a stock engine rule you will run into the same issues as just about all
other Associations have.
Last Edited By: jjh74
07/21/08 10:16 PM.
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SWMLA.southwestmodlites |
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Posts: 4 (07/21/08 10:49 PM) |
Twister,
The point about running at all six Arizona racetrack is that we are welcome and wanted at all the race tracks. Phoenix is the 4th largest metropolitan area in the country and that certainly helps with the numbers. As far as the dwarf car relationship, I just went through the 42 drivers and only 15-16 come from dwarf cars. The drivers are coming from other classes or directly into modlites; drivers that want to race, have done it in other types of cars, see this, try it and like it. We also have attracted the quarter midget guys (4). We are aware that "other" things can be done to enhance performance. The transmissions are teched to have all working gears. As for rods, bearing, blueprint, we try to appeal to the drivers to stay the course, it may sound corny but lets keep honesty and integrity part of the solution. And we do have the Association Engine Purchse Plan if it appears there may be an issue with a competitors engine. We/I truly believe that car count numbers are directly related to the "perception" that the playing field is "fair" regardless of what part of the country. When drivers believe they cannot compete either by funds or talent they will move on. There isn't much an association can do about driver talent, but we have control over the money spent on parts. The SWMLA limits the parts. The engine manufacturers are doing the hard part for us; they develop great HP for a low cost, we just need to keep 'ol Joe from getting in there to make more HP. If everyone is running an 04 GSXR in stock form, same tire, same car specs, standard lineup procedure, no rule changes after Jan 1 of the race year, never over $200 to win on a regular night (when you want to pay more, pay 20th place more) you get drivers that feel like it is fair, because it is fair. The SWMLA recognizes our ideas may not work for everybody; but if something is not working, then is it possible that something must change for improvement. That is what we hope we are doing. Art Garcia SWMLA |
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gphillips |
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Posts: 74 (07/22/08 08:23 PM) |
Jeremy, I really think we are looking at a set of rules very similar to what you guys are running. As far as tracks, I haven't approached any yet, but at
one time I counted and there were about 40 with in 4 hours driving time from where I live, ranging in size from 1/6 mile up to 3/8 mile. I really have been
wanting to get a set of rules drawn up, a payout structure decide upon, and a couple of cars between those of us looking at this class, so that I could go to
some tracks with an actual product instead of just an idea.
The engine idea is one of the last things we are dealing with. I guess now I need to find someone around here who is experienced in cycle engines and is also trustworthy to be our motor guy. |
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jjh74 |
Spec Engines | ||
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Posts: 72 (07/22/08 10:25 PM) |
Phillips, I believe there are allot of people that will be able to afford to race in Nothern Kentucky within the next 2 years. It is up to you to get people
involved. Get with Art Garcia and he will help you with any questions you have about our rules. Also get with Steve with Cycle Dynamics before you make a
engine rule. I would advise you to stick with the 1000cc(stock) over the 600cc(stock). Good luck with your future Association. Jeremy
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CJRaceCars |
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Posts: 85 (07/22/08 11:59 PM) |
I agree that you should use the 1000 cc engine. Best bang for the buck? Also perhaps you might run into issues with the transmissions being strong enough to
power a 1200 lb+ car. Anyhow I think everyone here is on the right track
Charles |
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gphillips |
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Posts: 76 (07/23/08 08:07 PM) |
Jeremy, I'm pretty sure we are going to go with the stock 1000cc engines, I'm just not sure that using a 600 would generate the wow factor that the
more powerful 1000s will.
We are located in Western Kentucky, down in the area where the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers come together. From where we live, we could race in Kentucky, Illinois, Missouri, Tennessee, and Indiana, maybe even into Arkansas, Alabama, and Mississippi. So I really think if we could get a group of cars together it wouldn't be a problem to find tracks to run at. I will be contacting both Art and Steve for any input that they would be willing to share with us about getting an Association off the ground. Greg |
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53 ORC |
Engines | ||
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Posts: 89 (07/23/08 10:02 PM) |
The idea of having a stock engine is great and I support it 100%, The problem you face is our form of racing is basically a fill in at most tracks and they are
not intrested in enforcing tech. I have been racing in and around Ohio for 15 years and the only track that enforces the rules is 35 Raceway. All the other
tracks 77, Rocky Top, Tyler co, Deerfield, Gas City, etc. you win or compete you load up and go home.Many tracks have adopted TUSA rules because its easy to
say come race with us we run TUSA rules, But what they fail to say is they don't enforce the rules. The engine can be bored and stroked with the proper
tools. and as far as rods and crank that would require pulling the oil pan. 99% of your fellow racers would get up-set if asked to remove their pan. Perception
is reality many say, And many of our fellow racers percieve that if you have a built engine they will be fast. Truth is hard work and knowledge of your car
will make you fast. I hope TUSA wakes up, They keep saying the rules are going in the direction of stock engines but Walt and the others board members have yet
to step up to the plate and make the tough decision. I guess my best advise to you is if your going to start an Association make sure you have tech people and
enforce your rules. If you do that I'll be there to race with you guys.
Toby Boetcher Outlaw Race Chassis LLC Success come from the Backbone not the Wishbone. |
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jjh74 |
Stock Engines | ||
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Posts: 75 (07/23/08 10:36 PM) |
Toby, You are right (everyone) would be upset if someone pulled the oil pan at the track. We don't have to pull the oil pan. We do pull the cover on the QC
rearends on the top 5 to make sure they are running the same gears equal to what Toyota has. It is important that the Associations enforce the rules. There is
not one track that inforces our rules, they leave it up to the Associations to. Like we said our rules are not bullet proof but for $1000 dollars is that wirth
cheating for? It sounds to me Associations need to start enforcing rules. If your car count comes up you will be the Main Attraction not the fill in. I
can't figure out why the bombers are being payed out more then Modlites in some parts of the country. Toby, How much to see a Outlaw racecar in Arizona?
jeremy.hokanson@srpnet.com
Last Edited By: jjh74
07/23/08 10:45 PM.
Edited 2 times.
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